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The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p
Evan Powell, November 11, 2008
ProjectorCentral.com

Your brand new 1080p home theater rig is finally installed and ready to go. You're all set to sit back and watch your favorite classic, Casablanca, like you've never seen it before, with stunning clarity and contrast. Your Blu-ray player outputs 1080p/24, the signal format everyone is raving about. You've got the Blu-ray edition of Casablanca. Your 1080p projector displays the Blu-ray signal in native 24 fps format--everything is as pure and pristine as it can get.

So, you hit the play button. The Warner Bros logo splashes onto the screen. The globe rotates slowly. The map of the Mediterranean is rendered in breathtaking sharp detail. You smile in deep satisfaction with your new system. And then it happens. At two minutes and 3 seconds into the film, the camera holds the skyline for a moment, then pans slowly down to street level. You recoil in horror as the picture comes completely unhinged. It stutters and shakes like a delirious madman. The buildings are seemingly in the throes of a bizarre earthquake. It hurts to watch it. You blink repeatedly in disbelief. How could your brand new state-of-the-art 1080p projection system with pure, native 24p transmission come so dramatically unglued?

Welcome to 24p. What you just experienced was motion judder, an extremely annoying artifact that derives from the fact that movies are filmed at 24 frames per second (fps). The 24 fps sampling rate was adopted as a de facto standard in 1926 when the budding film industry recognized they needed a sampling rate fast enough to support a coherent audio track. (The first talkie, The Jazz Singer, was released in 1927). Prior to audio-enabled movies, they were filmed at even slower speeds, in part to save film, and in part because film exposure speeds were a lot slower back then.

The industry standard 24 fps film rate is an albatross that we've been stuck with ever since. As it turns out, it is way too slow to resolve camera panning motion cleanly. So when a movie camera pans at an unfortunate speed, you get motion judder. Sometimes you get it in spades. The sad fact is, your high resolution 1080p/24 system is simply showing you the picture as encoded on the Blu-ray disc in its authentic naked form. We just never saw it in our homes quite as naked before the advent of Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Actually, we've never seen 24 fps film quite this naked even in a commercial movie theater since the double shuttering action of the movie theater's projection system reduces the experience of judder and flicker. You can see some judder in the movie theater, but it is not as pronounced as it is on a digital home theater projector playing Blu-ray or HD DVD at 24p.

But wait, wait, wait, you say...... "I thought these judder problems were related to this 3:2 pulldown thing, and once we went to 24p, we'd have a clean picture." Well, a lot of people anticipated that, because all we've seen in the NTSC world until recently is 24 fps film converted to 30 fps display. That conversion from 24 fps to 30 fps (typically referred to as 3:2 pulldown) does indeed introduce a slightly different kind of judder, as well as some blur, when the camera pans. So it is perfectly natural to assume that a native signal that hasn't been compromised by this nasty 3:2 pulldown conversion process would look better.

As it turns out, the opposite is often the case. The motion judder in native 24p can be atrocious. You can test it yourself if you have the equipment to do it. We'll assume that if you have a Blu-ray player, you are more likely to have a copy of Casino Royale than Casablanca. If you do, find a messy panning scene in Casino Royale. There are lots of them, but there's a real beauty in the 9th chapter, starting at 1 hour, 11 minutes and 13 seconds. The dealer is dealing, and the camera pans slowly around the table.

In 24p playback, this scene is a pure, unmitigated disaster. The people seated at the table come apart at the seams, the tuxes flash and strobe, the Casino Royale logo on the card table blinks like a neon sign. Once you've replayed this travesty a few times, switch your Blu-ray player to 60p output and run it again. Yes, it is still a mess. But look at it closely ... the juddering effect is actually reduced. That is because the 3:2 pulldown is blurring and masking some of the latent motion judder in the film. There is certainly a separate conversion judder that is added to the visual stew with 3:2 pulldown, but oddly enough it works in contravention of the latent 24p judder. The net effect is that the image is a bit blurred, and the overall judder is noticeably reduced. Scenes like this do not look great in 60p, but they look worse in 24p. After all the hype over 24p (the benefits of which we eagerly anticipated as much as anyone), it must be admitted that 60p playback can, in the final analysis, be less distracting for many people.

Having been told that 3:2 pulldown judder is the scourge of humanity, it may be shocking to hear that it is not the worst fate that can befall the home theater enthusiast. But the fact is, the antiquated 24 frames per second sampling rate is the more onerous problem. And this is no secret. Professional cinematographers are acutely aware of the limitations of 24 fps capture rates. They go to great lengths to control the camera in such a way that juddering effects are minimized, because directors don't like it any more than we do. One common technique is to put the camera on a track and move the camera at the same pace as a moving subject, so that the subject remains stationary in the frame. If the subject does not move across the screen, the subject does not judder. However, if the background is moving behind the subject, the background will indeed judder.

If you've still got your Casino Royale disc in the Blu-ray player, you can see a good example of this. Go to chapter 9 again, and to 1 hour, 9 min, 6 seconds. Here Bond is walking through the hotel. Notice that the cinematographer places Bond in the right half of the frame, and the camera retreats as Bond approaches to keep him in a stationary position while the background pans. Bond turns to his right, and the cinematographer continues to hold him in the right half of the frame. When this scene is played in 24p, Bond remains stable and in focus while the background judders like crazy. When you play it back in 60p, the juddering effect in the background is still there, but it is reduced--it is easier to live with.

Notice further that the background in this scene is somewhat out of focus. In situations like this, cinematographers can use larger apertures to minimize the camera's optical depth of field. By doing so, they can focus on the foreground subject and intentionally throw the background out of focus. This causes the motion judder in the background to become less apparent to the viewer. In this particular scene they did not fully accomplish the objective, but it helps.

Therefore, there are two basic conclusions we can draw. First, motion judder is a natural byproduct of the 24 fps film rate. You will see it if you play a Blu-ray or HD DVD movie in native 24p transmission. How much of it you see will be directly related to how much moderate speed camera panning there is in the movie. Second, 3:2 pulldown conversions are a secondary source of judder. However, they tend to blur and soften the more aggressive instances of motion judder that you'd see in native 24p display. Leaving conventional wisdom aside, if you have the option to play your Blu-ray movies in either 24p or 60p, don't be surprised if you prefer the relative stability of 60p.

So, is there any way to get rid of judder?

Absolutely. One solution to the problem is called frame interpolation. But before we get to that, let's get clear on the root problem: the reason the picture judders when the camera pans is because the standard sampling rate of 24 frames per second is not fast enough to fully resolve the motion. If we captured movies at 60 fps and played them back at 60p, juddering artifacts would be pretty much nonexistent.

Frame interpolation is a process by which the projector (or video processor) approximates what a film would have looked like if it had been captured at a much faster sampling rate to begin with. What it does it this: It buffers two or more sequential frames of the film, and evaluates the motion shifts between them. Then it uses this information to create interim frames that are partial steps in the motion sequence between each real frame. For example, the Panasonic AE3000's "Frame Creation" system will look at either two or three prior frames (depending on the mode you select), and create three interim frames that are each 25% incremental steps in the motion between two real frames. These are fed out at the rate of 96 Hz each. So in reality, in each 1/24 second, what you are actually seeing on the screen is one original frame from the Blu-ray disc, and three subsequent "motion adjusted" interim frames, all four of which are being displayed in sequence at 96 Hz. To put it another way, when using the AE3000's Frame Creation mode, a total of 75% of the image information on the screen is not on the Blu-ray disc at all, but rather is being created by the projector!

The result is this: When you watch Casablanca, and you get to the point where the camera pans down from the skyline to street level, the picture is smooth, stable, and clear with no hint of motion judder. After seeing conventional 24p playback side by side with this, it is no contest. One delivers a visual nightmare, the other gives you a smooth, clear image.

Panasonic is not the only vendor to have included frame interpolation on its home theater projectors this fall. Several others will have it also. These include the Sanyo PLV-Z3000, and several of the Epson home theater models. Each vendor has a different implementation of frame interpolation. But they all address the basic problem of film judder by creating interim frames that represent small steps in the motion sequence. One way or another, they will enable you to experience the film pretty much as if it had been captured at 60 fps to begin with.

As a caveat, we should point out that frame interpolation is a brand new feature on home theater projectors. As such, it might introduce artifacts of its own until the wrinkles are ironed out. The only model we've seen to date with this feature is the Panasonic AE3000, and we have not seen any artifacts that could be attributed to the Frame Creation system. However, frame interpolation does increase video delay on the AE3000, and we expect it will do so on every model. So users will want to incorporate an audio delay into the system in order to resolve lip-synch issues.

Now, before we conclude, it is important to acknowledge that many videophiles today prefer the judder of the 24 fps film experience. To some film buffs, tampering with the natural judder is a sin, because it just doesn't look like authentic film if it lacks the inherent instability of the low sampling rate. And indeed, they are right, it doesn't. Frame interpolation techniques can make the picture look too clear, too stable, to the point that it can be unnerving if you are not used to it. (For this reason, the AE3000 gives it to you as an option, and you can turn it on or off as you see fit.)

But think about this. Back in the early days of silent films, there was no standard frame exposure rate. The cinematographer manually turned the crank on the camera and exposed film at anywhere from 12 to 24 frames per second or more. The ideal goal of the professional projectionist in a movie theater was to play back that film at the rate at which it had been exposed, in order to make motion look natural. But all too often, theater management wanted it played back faster than it had been exposed. After all, time was money, even back then. And truth be known, some of those films did in fact have better entertainment value when they were showed at modestly accelerated projection speeds. Artificially rapid motion was an aesthetic that many movie viewers came to enjoy. Sometimes, when action and comedy movies were projected at the rate they were filmed, people would complain that they were too slow. Romantic films, on the other hand, looked absurd when played back faster than the rate they were filmed. But the point is that people back then had their own ideas about what film should look like.

Today, the 24p sampling rate defines our own aesthetic reality about what a film should look like, judder and all. However, we are in a period of rapid technological transformation. Someday, in the not too distant future, films will be made at 60 fps. The generations to follow us will experience films captured at 60 fps as the aesthetic norm. They will be accustomed to the crystal clear motion that high resolution 60 fps capture will deliver (and that frame interpolation can give us a glimpse of today). When they look back at the 20th century and early 21st century films produced in the old 24 fps format, they will think it quaint that we could have lived with the juddering limitations of our technology. That is worth bearing in mind as we think back with bemused nostalgia on the era of the silent films.


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Reader Comments(39 comments)

Posted Dec 25, 2008 2:59:58 PM

By drkim

These kind of historical media arguments are perpetual. (I remember hearing an engineer lamenting, "They'll never look as good as a Plumbicon." back when CCD cameras first came out.)

Especially odd was the comment that "24fps...it's the closest approximation of how we perceive motion...." According to who? When Douglas Trumbull did empirical testing of various frame rates he found that people could perceive improvement all the way up to 60fps.

At the end of the day - the media/projection/delivery system should not create limitations to how the image looks.

If your system limits you to 24 fps then directors can never achieve glassy smooth motion possible at 60.

If your system runs at 60fps (or better) the director can step print the footage to get that 24fps motion look.

People get attached to classic work and start thinking, "Casablanca was shot at 24fps, so if I shoot my movie at 24fps, it will be just as great."

The problem is that all these people with their shiny new 24fps cameras never cracked open the ASC handbook to look up the panning angle-per-second limit tables; and you get unwatchable, strobing garbage.

Another thing not addressed in this article is that the light output in theaters is lowered to reduce flicker (which is also why they double shutter to 48fps). As you pump up the light level at 24fps the flicker increases.

Posted Dec 23, 2008 2:39:02 AM

By Lollini Alex

All is a question of exposure time. And to stay open-minided, a good director will not stick to any tradition. In CG it is possible to "shoot" 24fps with each frame having a motion blur of the exact duration of 1/24 s. It is technically impossible with a camera. with an exposure near 1/24s motion look so smooth this gives a "slow motion" feeling.

more than 24 fps do not look good in a theater, because the black time take more and more share of the whole time and then blinking become a problem, i have seen projections at 48fps it is incredibly sharp and smooth, but some blinking make the viewing uncompfortable for panorama, slow moving subjects etc.. However a kung-fu scene with more fps would be absolutely stunning.

Stay open minded. Use the features at your taste!

I like to watch 24p because it feels authentic, but if some jumps in motion bothered me i would look for an "added frame" feature.

If we complain about such things, it is because home cinema just leaped ahead.

Posted Dec 10, 2008 11:29:24 AM

By perron

so eventually film makers will be recording frame rates at 60p? what if your BRP does not support frame rate of 60p? I have the panasonic DMP-BD35, I can't find that it supports other than 24p.

Posted Dec 3, 2008 1:15:43 AM

By Dave Doidge

Digital projection may never look like film projection. Film has the benefit of duplicating each frame with an equal pause between each opening an closing of the projector's shutter. This helps regulate the frames appearing on the screen and fools the eye to the point where movement seems "natural" (in a cinematic way). Digital projection does not empoy the same black out delay between frames and your eye will see the frame information of longer. This is why we se such a difference even when using 2:2 pulldown. It is the lack of darkness between frames which is not so evident with a digital display that is causing our problem.

I would have thought that DLP could provide us with the best cinematic experience, we just have to slow that colour wheel down, give it only white segments and then project through an LCD panel - hey maybe I've just invented the next Cinema digital format for that true film-like experience - we could always just go the the cinema and ask for film!

Posted Dec 1, 2008 9:41:59 PM

By Joseph Moore

"Judder" is not the correct term to describe how smooth or not motion is reproduced based on the frame rate (24P versus 30, 60, etc) and it's use in this article is very confusing.

Judder is a term used to describe the uneven visual effect of the sampling error resulting from mashing 24 progressive frames into 60 interlaced fields. Since the one is not evenly divisible by the other, the "cadence" of the motion has to change (3 frames, then 2 frames, then 3 frames, etc.) Put simply, judder implies uneven motion reproduction. If a display can show a native 24P at a refresh rate that is an even multiple, then judder is not present. Period.

Saying the playing back 24P material at 60P helps the motion rendering is like saying that keeping your glasses dirty helps your ugly date look better.

So, yes, it is very true that 24P motion is not as smooth as 60P. And yes, it's true that 24P displays reveal this lack of temporal resolution...but that's not judder, it's not an artifact or an error.

Posted Nov 29, 2008 11:15:01 PM

By Sonic

I don't think it is projector's responsibility to do frame interpolation. It is the blue-ray player that should convert the 24P source signal into 48P/96P before sending it to the projector via HDMI. The capability to receive 48HZ/96HZ 1080P signal is the only thing a projector should be added.

It is even more simple for those who play BD by HTPC. Just add a frame interpolation filter to the player software to generate 48P/96P picture if the CPU is strong enough. Otherwise, buy a new display card, which support hardware frame interpolation. I do think this feature will be added to next generation display card soon. It is nearly the same as the 1080i vector motion estimation deinterlace function already supported since ATI X1600.

Posted Nov 27, 2008 1:07:08 PM

By Rob BG

Many, if not most, film people need to stay far away from any kind of electronic filmmaking.

They'll eventually get used to 60 fps in the same way filmmakers eventually got used to the "too real" blasphemy that was the introduction of color to motion pictures and television. And the way Brits got used to PAL with its flickering brights.

No, eye movement does not judder at 24 fps. Next will be a request for on-screen blinking for added realism.

If judder is needed because it reminds you of an old-time movie experience, "save it in post." But don't impose antique and cabalistic base-line standards in a world that is also already discarding 720P for 1080P 60fps.

Even home video is moving ahead of commercial production with its use of 60 fps. Go look at Showscan & then we'll talk.

RBG

Posted Nov 25, 2008 8:56:52 PM

By Re: Stephen van Vuuren

I find the Bourne Ultimatum unwatchable as it is. Not everyone has seen what 60hz can do to an image. I have and I'm looking forward to the day when a good portion of the viewing audience has seen it, then there will be a demand the filmmakers will have to respond to.

Posted Nov 25, 2008 8:22:31 AM

By Stephen van Vuuren

Be careful what you ask for. 24fps is not only demanded by creators for it's beauty and non-realistic motion rendering, it also makes handheld, kinetic camera possible and beautiful on large screens. Everything from Bourne Ultimatum to Woman on the Edge of Nervous Breakdown would be unwatchable if shot at 60 or 120 fps.

Motion judder is only a real issue on certain shots (and we see it movie theatres all the time but we are used to it there.

Plus, this and many other articles about this issue are from people spending huge amounts of time evaluating images technically, not watching films. It's generally only a small subset of technicians that complain about 24fps.

As a filmmaker, I hear almost zero asking for anything but 24fps on new cameras. Audiences prefer it. To quote Stephen Colbert "The Market has spoken. 24fps wins".

Posted Nov 24, 2008 10:06:27 AM

By Re: Nick

Doubling the frame rate does not reduce judder, it reduces flicker.

Posted Nov 24, 2008 9:34:32 AM

By Nick

The reason you don't notice judder as much in theaters is because they actually display each frame twice, giving a quasi-48FPS rate. The travesty I see with this new "frame interpolation" is it is not a simple doubling of the frame - it's creating new information, which gives movies a look more similar to a 60i broadcast, a more "real" look like sports or newscasts if you will. They say that tv is what the eye sees and film is what the mind sees. Movies have always been dreamlike in that respect, so why are we trying to change that now?

I say, certainly give people a choice if they want to interpolate frames, but at least add another option to duplicate frames so that home theaters behave more like real film projectors.

Posted Nov 23, 2008 9:20:45 PM

By Bill Kelley

Witness "Quantum of Solace" in a DLP theater a few nights ago and noticed a constant flicker throughout the film and a one major judder during a fight sequence when Bond enters a Haiti apartment and the camera pans across the room with a bank of mirrors on the right side wall. IT seems to affect all digital projectors no matter the cost.

Also, I just watch "Dark Knight" on Blu-ray (I'm a reviewer) and it was judder free throughout with my Sanyo Z2000. I had noticed the judder issues with the scenes mentioned in the article (Casablanca and Casino Royale). Personally, I don't like the video look of movies processed with the LCD panels using 120hz. Waiting to see how the new Sanyo z3000 or Panasonic AE3000 handles the issue.

Posted Nov 23, 2008 12:59:16 AM

By L Parajuli

(Sorry for the earlier post.)

Gigolo Joe: "An example of fast shutter is Saving Private Ryan's battle scenes. The frame 'judder' in these scenes was the whole point of that style of cinematography and has been a template for many action films since, so I wouldn't have thought Janusz Kaminski would want someone pissing on his technique with interpolation after the fact."

I think the "fast shutter" and the frame 'judder' are not interchangeble terms and originate from completely different pages of the Physics Of Light book. Frame 'judder'is a side effect of 24p and unavoidable while shooting but has workarounds while viewing. Trimension DNM introduced in WinDVD by InterVideo is awsome in this case.

On the other hand, frame 'judder' results from the slow temporal resolution of 24p/25p. It is due the way our eyes SEE it. It not PRINTED on the frame, but the "fast shutter" effect is.

I completely disagree with the fact that Janusz Kaminski should be unhappy with the frame interpolation techniques. It doesn't kill his "fast shutter" STYLE rather it emphasize it by removing the frame judder.

I'm a digital compositor and recently had a hard time when I recommended SONY EX1 to a client for his next project which was supposed to be exhibited digitally AWA in film prints. The cameraman was from film background and this was the first time he was touching a native 24p digital camera. As soon as he noticed the judder in the inbuilt LCD screen, he completely refused to work with the camera.

The main point here is, even the experienced film cinematographers and the viewers didn't care much about this judder things as long as they enjoy the movie in theaters and later on 50i/60i tv screens. But the severness of the problem appeared with the arrival of TRUE 24p capable LCD/Plasma screens and affordable home projectors.

SO the main problem here is should we say our client, its the way 24p works - eat it or throw it, or are there any other workarounds apart from choosing more expensive frame interpolation capable projectors and LCD/Plasma screens?

Posted Nov 23, 2008 12:47:25 AM

By L Parajuli

Gigolo Joe: "An example of fast shutter is Saving Private Ryan's battle scenes. The frame 'judder' in

these scenes was the whole point of that style of cinematography and has been a template for many

action films since, so I wouldn't have thought Janusz Kaminski would want someone pissing on his

technique with interpolation after the fact."

I think the "fast shutter" and the frame 'judder' are not interchangeble terms and originate from

completely different pages of the Physics Of Light book. Frame 'judder'is a side effect of 24p and

unavoidable while shooting but has workarounds while viewing. Trimension DNM introduced in WinDVD by

InterVideo is awsome in this case.

On the other hand, frame 'judder' results from the slow temporal resolution of 24p/25p. It is due the

way our eyes SEE it. It not PRINTED on the frame, but the "fast shutter" effect is.

I completely disagree with the fact that Janusz Kaminski should be unhappy with the frame interpolation

techniques. It doesn't kill his "fast shutter" STYLE rather it emphasize it by removing the frame

judder.

I'm a digital compositor and recently had a hard time when I recommended SONY EX1 to a client for his

next project which was supposed to be exhibited digitally AWA in film prints. The cameraman was from film background and this was the first time he was touching a native 24p digital camera. As soon as he

noticed the judder in the inbuilt LCD screen, he completely refused to work with the camera.

The main point here is, even the experienced film cinematographers and the viewers didn't care much

about this judder things as long as they enjoy the movie in theaters and later on 50i/60i tv screens.

But the severness of the problem appeared with the arrival of TRUE 24p capable LCD/Plasma screens and

affordable home projectors.

SO the main problem here is should we say our client, its the way 24p works - eat it or throw it, or are there any other workarounds apart from choosing more expensive frame interpolation capable projectors and LCD/Plasma screens?

Posted Nov 22, 2008 1:51:55 PM

By Renderdog

5:5 is not required for judderless movies, 3:3 pulldown works fine. I used a 3:3 pulldown PC driven CRT projector at 72Hz for many years. Evan's main point is that the 24Hz film source is the main problem. 5:5 will not fix that.

Posted Nov 19, 2008 12:24:34 PM

By love2scoot

Despite the completely valid artistic choice of 24p (which other commenters cover), there is a glaring hole in this article: Almost no new displays accurately display a 24p signal. Just because the display can accept a 24p signal does not determine how it handles that information. Without getting to far into specifics, what is needed here is 5:5 pulldown which essentially takes the 24p incoming signal and displays each frame as 5 frames of a 120MHz signal. AFAIK the only projector on the market that does this is the PLV-Z3000 (I'd love to be wrong). Want more info? check the HDTV motion blur article on Wikipedia or check 5:5 pulldown on AVS Forums. 5:5 pulldown appears to address most of the problems that Evan mentions above.

Posted Nov 18, 2008 8:04:09 AM

By Jim Roberts

As a person who is a film and college sports buff, I have been investigating projectors. Further, as a person who has never seen a variety of projectors from which to choose, I have been relying on Evans postings. I understand in general terms what is being said, but how and where do I go, to in fact see what I am proposing to purchase; or in practical terms, If I can't see this, how do I make a descision and proceed? JR

Posted Nov 17, 2008 5:44:21 PM

By Renderdog

It's clear some people will cling to 24fps like a security blanket. I saw 60fps movies many years ago (Douglas Trumbull's Showscan format movies) and it was incredible, like looking through a window. A shame the theater industry has not already adopted that technology, mostly due to cost. HD technology should make it more cost effective to transition; as the author wrote, we'll look back at 24fps as quaint.

Posted Nov 17, 2008 11:17:55 AM

By Jason

I've worked in film, and used high-end HD cameras that support both 24p and 60p (the Panasonic VariCam HD Camera actually supports any frame rate up to 60p). And it is true that 60p has a wonderfully smooth playback, and looks absolutely alive and lifelike on screen -- but that's a blessing or a curse depending on what you are filming and the mood you are trying to convey in a movie. If you are filming sports and want a "live" feel with perfectly accurate images then yes 60p is awesome. On the other hand, if you are filming a cinematic movie, and trying to tell a STORY then you want to "blur time" a bit and hide oddities and imperfections in actors movements. 24p does just that, and creates a surreal effect that is mostly subliminal, but highly effective. When you see side-by-side footage of both 24p and 60p of the exact same movie scene, the 24p footage looks less awkward in many places during an actor's performance. 60p shows you TOO MUCH temporal information -- great for porn, sports, and news... no so great for story telling.

Posted Nov 16, 2008 11:12:57 AM

By PaulMathers

I recently viewed the JVC HD1 and Panasonic AE3000 both set to 24fps and found that the motion blur/judder in the opening scenes of Casino Royale (Building Site Chase) to be very distracting and a little nauseating. I did not notice these issues at the cinema and would be interested to see the Panasonic AE3000 again set at 60p to see if this resolves the issue. I have contacted my local dealer for his opinion.

Posted Nov 16, 2008 10:13:24 AM

By Igor

Opposite I've noticed that in cinema I observe motion with much stronger judder than same film on Blu-Ray on my Epson 1080UB (both - Blu-Ray player and the projector rightly configured for 24p and 2:2 pulldown). Also if I set 60p output for 24p Blu-Ray movie I see more unpleasant juddering (obviously because of repeating of some frames). Probably LCD projector adds some kind of frame interpolation (dissolving) which makes show of movie better than in cinema.

Posted Nov 15, 2008 1:05:08 PM

By Nabi

If you go to a theatre, you'll notice that the picture doesn't flicker as it should with 24fps. I've heard that's because the modern theatre projector opens and closes at 48fps.

Posted Nov 15, 2008 7:00:09 AM

By Mark MacLean

I think that Evan's article is very similar to how I see this interpolation debate. There will be a few films where 24p was "specifically used for effect" by the director, but in many more it is just an artifact.

Having equipment which allows me to turn this feature on and off sounds like a good technical advancement. It can always be disabled if a film requires it.

Posted Nov 14, 2008 10:51:47 PM

By Jorge

LUBOMIR said this: "I'm based in Europe and we have 25fps here. There is no significant difference between 24fps and 25fps framerate-wise. But there is very major difference when you watch that picture because we don't have any cadence issues, any 3:2 pulldowns and that stuff."

MY COMMENT ON THAT: Yes, panning/fast moving the image in Euro-TV looks just like Evan had described in his article. Juddery. That is because 25 is indeed closer to 24 than 30 is.

In Evan's article it was clearly stated that 30fps w. pulldown still gave smoother image than 24fps w/o the pulldown. Unfortunately, Euroviewers cannot benefit from any type of a pulldown, be it 3:2, 2:2 or otherwise.

LUBOMIR also stated this: "Those of you who have NEVER seen high-def in Europe will never believe what a difference it is."

MY COMMENT: Those of us who have NEVER seen hi-def in Europe probably include the vast majority of Americans. as well as Europeans. Especially, since they don't really have hi-def broadcasting in Europe, other than some eggsperimental satellite channels.

So... one can indeed NEVER believe what one can practically NEVER see.

What they have in Europe instead is 100 Hertz progressive PAL transmitted more and more digitally, not as analog. WOnderful, robust image on the telly. That is NOT hi-def, however, which is why it is still rather difficult to see hi-def in Europe.

Posted Nov 14, 2008 1:37:27 PM

By Lubomir

people, you are just USED TO watch 24fps material. There is nothing like "24fps being the closest approximation of how we perceive motion". Everybody thought that 15fps is the closest approximation in 1925 and how does it look TODAY when you watch good old Charlie Chaplin grabbed at 15fps ??

Would you want to have 15fps today? No. Would your grandchildren want to have 24fps? Bet no. Clarity and pureness will prevail the "today common phenomenon" of 24fps being the best film-like experience with blurred [!!] jerky-perky-crazy-jumping-dog picture. Much more important things are post processing, color correction generally, color tonality etc, stabilization and quality of camera crew. I'll tell you one thing, I'm based in Europe and we have 25fps here. There is no significant difference between 24fps and 25fps framerate-wise. But there is very major difference when you watch that picture because we don't have any cadence issues, any 3:2 pulldowns and that stuff.

Somehow I fully agree with author of this article, 50fps + 60fps is the future. Those of you who have NEVER seen high-def in Europe will never believe what a difference it is. Specially that stupid motion judder.

Enjoy!

Posted Nov 14, 2008 11:46:53 AM

By Wayne Liston

Thanks for the best history and explanation I have read on this subject.

I am surprised at the partisan response and unaware that the human eye was naturally 24fps. I had thought Titanic lurching out of Liverpool harbour across my screen was an aberration.

Your flickerfolk detractors really should get PAL 25fps tvs for more satisfaction. A wavery optical sound track simulation (with adjustable wear levels!) should also be easy to implement with current DSP processing power. I assume they already own CD players with surface noise reconstruction.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 9:32:09 PM

By Jason

This article is kinda full of it. The 24p film look is beloved because it is surreal. And the inherent motion blur (and the use of a standard 180-degree shutter in the camera) helps smooth out any jitters. 30i and 60p/i are disliked for cinema because it looks "too real", but is good for live sports, news, and reality shows. I bet the problem the writer is noticing is that some cheaper 1080p TVs use inferior video processors which may drop frames, or get out of sync with the signal from the source. Maybe it's an inferior up-sampling converter (line doubler, etc) that can't keep up. I've seen TV's at the store side by side with the same specs (1080p, 24p, etc), and with the same show on both TV's the motion artifacts and frame rates were night and day. And neither TV had any "Frame Creation" or temporal-interpolation crap.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 9:03:42 PM

By Gigolo Joe

I'm sorry but you're wrong. Cinematographers do not worry about 24fps judder. There is such a thing as shutter speed which in the vast majority of film shots is kept fairly slow, having the effect of blurring the action. An example of fast shutter is Saving Private Ryan's battle scenes. The frame 'judder' in these scenes was the whole point of that style of cinematography and has been a template for many action films since, so I wouldn't have thought Janusz Kaminski would want someone pissing on his technique with interpolation after the fact.

The reason 24fps has been the standard for nearly a century (and hopefully remain so, in spite of witless feature preachers) is that it's the closest approximation of how we perceive motion. You don't move your head or eye in a perfectly smooth line, there is a slight judder and your brain blends it together.

Go to a cinema and count the number of times the filmmakers or projectionist have used interpolation in a given film because it looks a bit juddery...

Or you could stop spewing this drivel which no doubt may have some influence on the many poor souls out there awash in a confusing maelstrom of technobabbling marketing speak.

My advice to anyone who wants the best and most faithful home cinema is to emulate an actual cinema - turn off all 'enhancements', noise-reductions and such. Only buy gear that looks - to you - as close to a cinema image as possible and that doesn't [censored] all over the pure signal from your source.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 10:49:59 AM

By Nabi

I thought that in modern movie theatre projection the FPS is actually doubled to 48 for a smoother pic, by having the shutter go off twice per frame (or something similar.) Lots of people are saying that frame interpolation in the new projectors doesn't really make much practical difference but I don't know.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 9:20:06 AM

By Herne

I'm not convinced that 60 fps (or 50 fps, 30p&60i aren't the only frame rates used) will be the next standard in cinematography, after all people have experienced 60 (or 50) fields per second tv-pictures for years and that also gives us a very good glimpse of what would 60 fps films would look like. Usually the first thing people do when they want to emulate film look with video cameras is to shoot 24 fps since 60i is accustomed to tv-news and sports broadcasting and doesn't produce convincing filmic images imho. I don't think that people will be that surprised with 24p studder since the same effect has been experienced with film projection in movie theaters for ages.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 6:43:32 AM

By borromini

I'm not convinced with the article's conclusion that 24p will be a thing of the past. I suspect it will be around and co-existing with 30p/60p productions.

Posted Nov 13, 2008 12:22:25 AM

By M.G.

Thanks for your explanation. Please, take in consideration that, even with 24p signal, we are talking about a digitally reconstructed film clone, based in Mpeg and other codecs , which are proved to be motion degradation sources. To me , even a bad digital intermediate process could degrade motion, but uncompressed 24 fps , as shown in cinemas, is not so limited in the motion representation task as you are explaining. Also, I think that 60 hz judder is by far, worse than 24p “judder” ( I don´t know if we can call it so), and frame interpolation could be fine for sports and tv, but not really useful for a trully natural cinema experience. Cheers and sorry for my English. M.G..

Posted Nov 12, 2008 11:51:49 PM

By Bruce W.

Is anyone doing this on the player side?

Seems like the player could do it with fewer artifacts since the mpeg stream has information about where the pixels are going than the projector does. ie. being an interframe compression scheme, several intermediate frames are constructed between the I frames -- why not generate a few more?

The projector has to deduce this information from the raw pixels.

Posted Nov 12, 2008 9:30:35 PM

By Don

So why isn't this a problem in movie theaters? Aren't films typically shown in their native 24fps in the movie theater? Also, what about all the new digital movie theaters? Do they have this problem?

Posted Nov 12, 2008 6:37:48 PM

By M. Gibson

This was a GREAT article. Very informative - I learned a lot!

Posted Nov 12, 2008 5:33:03 PM

By Robert

two questions: 1-is setting 3 visibly smoother than setting 2? 2-how many ms delay would the audio need for each setting?

Posted Nov 12, 2008 4:48:01 PM

By JSS

Thanks for the article. Want to see judder. Check Futurama : Bender's Game on Blu-ray, it's in 24p and since it's simple animation that is extra clear the jugger from 24p is very evident here. Do you think it would justify an upgrade from the Z2000 to Z3000? just for that feature?

Posted Nov 12, 2008 9:20:30 AM

By Jason Haskell

What is the time frame for movies to be shot at a higher FPS rate. Is the technology there already or will it be some time before films are shot at higher rates?

Posted Nov 11, 2008 3:36:20 PM

By Robert Smith

Good and timely article.

A few comments:

1. The shutters on motion-picture projectors generally open and close twice per frame. This tends to reduce the flicker and some of the effects. 2. A number of films were shot at 30fps which tends to smooth out the motion. Oklahoma! and Around the World in 80 Days had this treatment in 70mm Todd-AO. 3. The original Cinerama process was 26fps; this was used for the travelogues produced in 3-strip Cinerama. 4. Most importantly: I would like the production standard increased to 120fps. Since this is divisible by 24, 30, and 60, it allows for easy conversion to basically any existing format.

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